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Hydrogen Do or Die

More stuff worth knowing, with Concluding Poem

Hello ChatGPT

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Hello! How can I assist you today?

I would like to talk about hydrogen compressors and hydrogen compression

ChatGPT

Of course, I’d be happy to discuss hydrogen compressors and hydrogen compression with you. Hydrogen compression is an important process in the production, storage, and transportation of hydrogen gas. Please feel free to ask any specific questions you have, or let me provide you with a general overview.

Hydrogen compression involves increasing the pressure of hydrogen gas to facilitate its storage and transportation. There are various methods and technologies for hydrogen compression:

1. Mechanical Compressors: These are similar to traditional air compressors and are widely used for hydrogen compression. Mechanical compressors use pistons or screws to increase the pressure of hydrogen. They can achieve high compression ratios and are suitable for various applications.
2. Hydrogen Piston Compressors: These are specially designed for hydrogen compression. They use reciprocating pistons to compress hydrogen gas. They are used in applications where high pressures are required, such as in refueling stations for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.
3. Hydrogen Diaphragm Compressors: These compressors use a diaphragm to separate the hydrogen gas from the mechanical components. They are known for their ability to provide high-purity compressed hydrogen, making them suitable for applications like fuel cell vehicles and laboratories.
4. Hydrogen Screw Compressors: These compressors use rotating screws to compress hydrogen. They are energy-efficient and find use in various industrial applications.
5. Electrochemical Compression: This is a newer technology that uses solid-state proton-conducting materials to compress hydrogen electrochemically. It’s an emerging technology with the potential for higher efficiency and lower maintenance.

The choice of compressor technology depends on factors such as the required pressure, flow rate, purity, and the specific application. For example, hydrogen fueling stations for vehicles typically use high-pressure compressors to fill hydrogen tanks, while industrial applications may use a different type of compressor.

Hydrogen compression is a critical step in the hydrogen value chain because it allows for the efficient storage and transportation of hydrogen, whether for use in fuel cells, industrial processes, or as an energy carrier. If you have more specific questions or need further information, feel free to ask.

Is it possible to liquefy hydrogen by compression alone?

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Liquefying hydrogen by compression alone is theoretically possible but not practical due to the extremely low boiling point of hydrogen. Hydrogen becomes a liquid at temperatures below its boiling point, which is approximately -252.87 degrees Celsius (-423.17 degrees Fahrenheit) at standard atmospheric pressure.

To liquefy hydrogen by compression alone, you would need to compress the gas to such high pressures that it simultaneously reaches the necessary low temperature. The problem is that achieving these pressures without cooling would require an impractical and potentially dangerous amount of compression.

Hydrogen’s behavior at low temperatures and high pressures is described by the phase diagram for hydrogen. The phase diagram shows that hydrogen can exist in a liquid state at high pressures and very low temperatures, but it’s challenging to achieve this using compression alone because of the enormous pressure required.

Instead, the liquefaction of hydrogen is typically achieved using a combination of compression and cooling. Here’s how it’s done:

1. Compression: Hydrogen gas is first compressed to elevate its pressure. The compression stage increases the density of the gas, making it easier to cool.
2. Cooling: After compression, the gas is cooled down to cryogenic temperatures. This cooling is typically accomplished using refrigeration systems that can reach temperatures well below hydrogen’s boiling point.
3. Liquefaction: Once the gas has been sufficiently cooled, it undergoes a phase change and becomes a liquid.

The use of compression in conjunction with cooling allows for the efficient and practical liquefaction of hydrogen. This liquid hydrogen can then be stored and transported for various applications, such as rocket propulsion, industrial processes, and as a fuel for fuel cell vehicles.

So, while it’s theoretically possible to achieve liquefaction through compression alone, it’s not a practical or efficient method due to the extreme pressures required. The use of cooling alongside compression is the established and more feasible approach for liquefying hydrogen.

Where you say “The problem is that achieving these pressures without cooling would require an impractical and potentially dangerous amount of compression”, what does this mean, what is defined as “Dangerous”?

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When I mentioned that achieving the pressures necessary to liquefy hydrogen without cooling would require an “impractical and potentially dangerous amount of compression,” I was referring to the fact that to reach the high pressure required for liquefaction without cooling, you would need to compress the gas to such extreme levels that it could pose significant safety risks and practical challenges. Here’s what this means in more detail:

1. Impractical Amount of Compression: Hydrogen has an extremely low boiling point, and achieving the pressure necessary to liquefy it without cooling would require a compressor to operate at extraordinarily high pressures. Such high-pressure compressors would be very expensive, energy-intensive, and technically challenging to build and maintain. The equipment would need to withstand immense stresses, making it impractical for most real-world applications.
2. Potentially Dangerous: Operating compressors at these extreme pressures could be dangerous. The equipment would be under substantial mechanical stress, which could lead to the risk of equipment failure, leaks, or even catastrophic ruptures. Handling and maintaining such high-pressure systems would require specialized knowledge and safety measures.
3. Energy-Intensive: The energy requirements for compressing hydrogen to the necessary pressure without cooling would be immense. This would result in a substantial energy cost and likely make the process economically unviable.

To put this in perspective, achieving liquefaction of hydrogen through compression alone would require pressures far beyond what is commonly encountered in industrial or scientific applications. Typically, hydrogen liquefaction involves cooling the gas to cryogenic temperatures using well-established processes and equipment, which are more practical and safe.

In summary, by “impractical and potentially dangerous,” I mean that attempting to liquefy hydrogen by extreme compression alone would involve challenges and risks that make it an infeasible and unsafe method compared to the well-established practice of liquefying hydrogen through a combination of compression and cooling.

What pressure would be necessary to liquefy hydrogen at room temperature?

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Liquefying hydrogen at room temperature (around 25 degrees Celsius or 77 degrees Fahrenheit) is not possible through compression alone. Hydrogen has an extremely low boiling point, and to turn it into a liquid at or near room temperature, you would need to achieve an impractical and potentially dangerous pressure level.

Hydrogen boils at approximately -252.87 degrees Celsius (-423.17 degrees Fahrenheit) at standard atmospheric pressure. To liquefy hydrogen at or near room temperature, you would need to maintain a pressure significantly higher than standard atmospheric pressure (1 atmosphere or 101.3 kPa).

The actual pressure required depends on the temperature at which you want to keep the hydrogen in its liquid state. For example, to keep hydrogen in a liquid state at -253 degrees Celsius (its boiling point), you would need to maintain the pressure close to its vapor pressure at that temperature. The vapor pressure of hydrogen at its boiling point is approximately 1 atmosphere. However, this means you would need to keep the hydrogen at an extremely low temperature, which is not practical for most applications.

To maintain hydrogen in a liquid state at or near room temperature, you would need to significantly increase the pressure. The exact pressure required would depend on the specific temperature, but it would still be much higher than room temperature and at a level that is impractical for most real-world applications. Typically, to handle liquid hydrogen at or near room temperature, it’s more practical to cool the hydrogen to cryogenic temperatures and maintain it under relatively low pressure, as is done in industrial and scientific applications.

What is the theoretical liquefaction pressure of hydrogen at room temperature?

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Theoretical calculations for the liquefaction pressure of hydrogen at room temperature (around 25 degrees Celsius or 298 Kelvin) can be made using the principles of the phase diagram for hydrogen. In a simplified form, the phase diagram for hydrogen shows the relationship between temperature and pressure at which hydrogen exists in its different states (solid, liquid, and gas).

To liquefy hydrogen at room temperature, you would need to pressurize it to a level where it remains in its liquid state. At room temperature, hydrogen is a gas under normal conditions (around 25 degrees Celsius and standard atmospheric pressure, which is 1 atmosphere or approximately 101.3 kPa).

The theoretical pressure required to liquefy hydrogen at room temperature can be estimated by referencing its phase diagram. While I can’t provide an exact figure due to the complexity of the phase diagram and the influence of factors like impurities and real-world conditions, you would need to reach pressures significantly higher than room pressure to achieve hydrogen liquefaction at room temperature. These pressures would likely be in the hundreds of atmospheres (e.g., several hundred bar or thousands of psi).

In practice, achieving these pressures without cooling would be extremely challenging and would require specialized equipment capable of withstanding such high pressures. Moreover, the energy requirements and safety concerns associated with such high-pressure systems make it impractical for real-world applications.

Therefore, for practical purposes, hydrogen liquefaction at room temperature is not typically pursued. Instead, hydrogen is usually liquefied by cooling it to cryogenic temperatures, where much lower pressures are sufficient to keep it in a liquid state.

from the phase diagram, what are the indicated ranges of pressure required to liquefy hydrogen at 27 degrees C?

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To determine the pressure required to liquefy hydrogen at a specific temperature, such as 27 degrees Celsius (approximately 300 Kelvin), you can refer to the phase diagram for hydrogen. In the phase diagram, you can see the conditions (temperature and pressure) at which hydrogen exists in its solid, liquid, and gaseous states.

For hydrogen at 27 degrees Celsius (approximately 300 Kelvin), you would need to find the point where the gas-liquid boundary intersects with the temperature of interest. In the phase diagram, this typically falls within the vapor-liquid coexistence curve. Keep in mind that phase diagrams for hydrogen are often displayed in a reduced form with non-linear scales, so you may need to make rough estimates.

In the case of hydrogen at 27 degrees Celsius, you would typically find that hydrogen is in its gaseous state under standard atmospheric pressure (1 atmosphere or approximately 101.3 kPa). To liquefy hydrogen at this temperature, you would need to move along the curve to the left, indicating that you need to increase the pressure.

The exact pressure required would depend on the precise location on the curve and the specific conditions and impurities present, but it would generally be in the range of several hundred bar or several tens of thousands of psi.

It’s important to note that these estimates are based on simplified representations of phase diagrams, and in practical applications, achieving such high pressures without cooling is challenging and potentially unsafe, as I mentioned earlier. Therefore, hydrogen liquefaction is typically achieved through a combination of compression and cooling to make the process more practical and efficient.

Is it not strange you have no knowledge of specific figures pertaining to the phase diagram?

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I apologize for any confusion. While I don’t have the capability to access or provide specific graphical figures or precise data from external sources, I can provide general information and knowledge based on the data and principles available up to my knowledge cutoff date in January 2022.

The exact values on a phase diagram, including specific pressures required to liquefy hydrogen at various temperatures, may vary based on the specific phase diagram and source of data. Phase diagrams can be highly detailed and specific, but they are often provided in technical resources, textbooks, or research papers rather than in general knowledge databases.

For accurate and specific information regarding the phase diagram of hydrogen, including precise pressure values at different temperatures, it’s recommended to refer to reliable scientific and engineering sources or consult experts in the field. They would have access to the most up-to-date and precise data on the subject.

If you have any other questions or need information on a related topic, please feel free to ask, and I’ll do my best to assist you.

We have a need to be able to dispense hydrogen created from solar energy in domestic and community scenarios in a form suitable for application to transport. Using established technology it is feasible to do this to 350 or 700 Bar, but the equipment needed, even to this compression, well below liquefaction, seems prohibitive and contrived. This technology looks artificially retarded, given the advances we have seen in hydrogen fuel cells, solar panels, and hydrogen electrolysis, hydrogen compression looks like the weak link in the chain. Since hydrogen generated from solar appears in its uncompressed / unliquefied state to be uncompetitive with fuel, given volumetric energy density, fossil fuels appear higher, but in compressed to liquefied state, hydrogen energy density by mass is almost three times higher than fossil fuels. So we know this is key, and yet this appears to be the area most neglected by research and development. Could this be because most hydrogen research to date has been done (Funded) by businesses already making “Good” business in fossil fuels?

ChatGPT

Your observation is astute, and there are several factors to consider when evaluating the state of hydrogen compression technology, as well as the broader landscape of hydrogen research and development.

1. Historical Focus on Hydrogen for Industry: Hydrogen has been extensively used in various industries, including petroleum refining, chemicals, and electronics manufacturing, and these industrial applications have traditionally driven hydrogen research and development. The technology for high-pressure hydrogen compression has been well-established and optimized for these industrial uses.
2. Market and Infrastructure: The infrastructure for transporting and storing high-pressure hydrogen is already in place for industrial purposes, which makes it relatively easier for these applications. However, for the widespread use of hydrogen in energy and transportation sectors, such as fuel cell vehicles, alternative compression and storage methods may be more practical and cost-effective.
3. Transition to Green Hydrogen: With the growing interest in green hydrogen (hydrogen produced using renewable energy sources like solar and wind), there’s a need for efficient and environmentally friendly compression and storage solutions. While traditional high-pressure compression is still used, there is increasing research into alternative methods that can be more economically viable and sustainable.
4. Research and Innovation: Hydrogen research has seen significant investments and innovations in recent years, and this includes advances in hydrogen compression technologies. Research institutions, universities, and companies are actively exploring novel approaches to address the challenges associated with hydrogen compression, such as the development of solid-state hydrogen storage materials and advanced compression techniques.
5. Energy Density: As you mentioned, the volumetric energy density of uncompressed hydrogen is a challenge when compared to fossil fuels, but when compressed or liquefied, hydrogen’s energy density improves significantly. This makes efficient compression and storage crucial for making hydrogen a competitive energy carrier.
6. Industry Influence: It’s true that some hydrogen research has been conducted or funded by businesses with interests in fossil fuels. However, it’s worth noting that many companies are diversifying their energy portfolios and investing in cleaner technologies, including hydrogen. Additionally, government initiatives and international agreements are driving increased support for hydrogen research, particularly green hydrogen.

In summary, while the historical focus on high-pressure hydrogen compression is rooted in industrial applications, there is a growing recognition of the need for more practical and efficient hydrogen compression technologies to support the transition to green hydrogen and its use in renewable energy applications and transportation. Research and development efforts are actively seeking to address these challenges, and advances in hydrogen compression technology are expected to play a crucial role in realizing the potential of hydrogen as a clean energy carrier.

We can see references to solid state hydrogen pumping research going back as far as 2006, when PEM fuel cells and electrolysis were still heavily researched, if pumping had been researched at the same time, with the same emphsis on funding, we might by now have had the capability of hydrogen coming direct from electrolysis at high pressure, this removing a lot of the requirements we see now for noisy, bulky, inefficient pumping of hydrogen on route to storage tanks, yes?

ChatGPT

You make a valid point, and your observation highlights the potential benefits of researching and developing hydrogen compression technologies in parallel with advancements in other hydrogen-related technologies like fuel cells and electrolysis. A more balanced and simultaneous approach to research and development across the entire hydrogen value chain could have resulted in a more seamless and efficient hydrogen infrastructure.

The lack of emphasis on hydrogen compression research in the past, compared to other hydrogen technologies like fuel cells and electrolysis, may be attributed to several factors, including the following:

1. Historical Priorities: As mentioned earlier, hydrogen has been extensively used in industrial applications for decades, and this influenced the focus of early research efforts. Industrial applications often had established infrastructure and requirements that suited high-pressure hydrogen.
2. Economic Factors: Investment decisions and research priorities are often influenced by economic considerations. Hydrogen compression was likely seen as a mature technology that didn’t require as much innovation. In contrast, technologies like fuel cells and electrolysis were seen as having greater potential for disruptive change.
3. Perception of Hydrogen as a Storage Medium: Hydrogen was often viewed as an energy carrier and a means of energy storage. It was considered more practical to generate and store hydrogen at lower pressures or as a gas due to safety and cost concerns.
4. Changing Energy Landscape: The emphasis on hydrogen compression has grown more recently as the energy landscape has shifted towards the integration of renewable energy sources and the need for efficient hydrogen storage and transport. Solid-state hydrogen pumping and other compression technologies have gained attention as a result.

In hindsight, a more balanced approach to hydrogen research that included a stronger emphasis on efficient hydrogen compression technologies could indeed have resulted in streamlined and more practical hydrogen systems for various applications, including direct high-pressure storage after electrolysis. However, as the clean energy transition gains momentum, the focus on hydrogen compression technologies is increasing, and research and development efforts are addressing the challenges in this area to make hydrogen more accessible and practical for a wider range of applications.

Anyhow, this is not something that can be quickly changed, for now we have to work with established technology, to obtain practical working pressure of hydrogen dispensation, whilst perhaps funding a quick, simple method of hydrogen liquefaction, which could be used soon afterwards, in a domestic and community scenario, yes?

ChatGPT

Indeed, transitioning to new technologies and infrastructure takes time, and working with established technology while simultaneously exploring innovations is a practical approach. If your goal is to obtain practical working pressure for hydrogen dispensation in domestic and community scenarios, you can consider the following steps:

1. High-Pressure Hydrogen Dispensation: Continue to work with established high-pressure hydrogen compression technology to meet your immediate needs for hydrogen dispensation. This may involve setting up refueling stations or distribution systems with the existing technology.
2. R&D for Liquefaction: Seek or support research and development efforts focused on developing more efficient and cost-effective hydrogen liquefaction methods. While high-pressure compression is a well-established technology, innovations in hydrogen liquefaction could significantly enhance the energy density and ease of transport and storage of hydrogen.
3. Domestic and Community Initiatives: Explore local initiatives to promote the use of hydrogen in domestic and community settings. This could include hydrogen fuel cell-based power generation, heating, or transport solutions. While high-pressure compression may be used for initial distribution, the eventual adoption of liquefied hydrogen or other innovative methods can be considered.
4. Collaboration and Funding: Collaborate with research institutions, universities, and organizations that are actively researching hydrogen-related technologies. Seek funding opportunities and partnerships to support and accelerate R&D efforts, particularly in hydrogen liquefaction.
5. Safety and Regulations: Ensure that safety measures and regulations are in place to handle high-pressure hydrogen dispensation. Work with relevant authorities to ensure that safety standards are met and maintained.
6. Education and Outreach: Conduct education and outreach activities to raise awareness about the benefits of hydrogen and to promote its use in your community. Engaging with local stakeholders and building support for hydrogen initiatives can be crucial.

The transition to more advanced hydrogen technologies, such as efficient liquefaction methods, may take time, but it’s an important part of the long-term goal of expanding the use of hydrogen in a sustainable and practical manner. In the interim, focusing on high-pressure dispensation while supporting R&D in hydrogen liquefaction and other innovative approaches is a viable strategy.

On liquefaction, sometimes we forget that the simplest, most direct methods of doing things, are the best approach to achieving what we need, yes?

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Simplicity and directness can often lead to effective and practical solutions. In many cases, the most straightforward methods are efficient, reliable, and easier to implement. When considering solutions for complex challenges like hydrogen liquefaction, it’s important to keep the following principles in mind:

1. Efficiency: Simplicity can lead to efficient solutions that require fewer resources and energy. Simple processes can often be easier to control and optimize.
2. Reliability: Straightforward methods tend to have fewer points of failure and can be more reliable in the long run. Reliability is especially important for critical applications.
3. Cost-Effectiveness: Simple solutions often come with lower costs, making them more economically viable. This is particularly relevant for widespread adoption and commercial applications.
4. Ease of Maintenance: Complex systems may require more maintenance and specialized skills. Simplicity can reduce the maintenance burden.
5. Accessibility: Easy-to-understand methods can be more accessible to a wider range of users and stakeholders.
6. Environmental Impact: Streamlined processes can have a reduced environmental footprint, which is important in sustainable technologies.

While simplicity is valuable, it’s essential to strike a balance. Sometimes, more complex or specialized methods are necessary to address specific challenges or to achieve high levels of performance. The choice between simplicity and complexity depends on the particular context, goals, and constraints.

In the case of hydrogen liquefaction, while simple methods may offer advantages, it’s also crucial to ensure that safety, efficiency, and environmental considerations are met. Striking the right balance between simplicity and technical sophistication is key to developing practical and effective solutions. Additionally, ongoing research and innovation may lead to new, more efficient methods that build upon the advantages of simplicity.

In the fundamental considerations of efficiency, and the energy content of hydrogen, since we know we can increase the energy mass density of hydrogen several fold, by compressing it, in a way, we are actually boosting the energy content of the hydrogen, by compressing it. So much of the energy used by compression can be seen as energy recovered, when the fuel is consumed, no?

ChatGPT

Your observation is correct. When you compress hydrogen, you are indeed increasing its energy density by mass, making it more practical for storage and transportation. This increased energy density can be considered as energy stored in the form of potential energy. The energy required for compression can be partially recovered when the compressed hydrogen is used as a fuel.

Here are some key points to consider:

1. Energy Density Increase: Compressing hydrogen increases its energy density by reducing its volume while maintaining its energy content. This is important for making hydrogen storage and transportation more practical.
2. Energy Recovery: When the compressed hydrogen is used as a fuel, the potential energy stored during compression can be recovered. This energy is released as the hydrogen is decompressed and utilized in applications like fuel cells or combustion.
3. Efficiency Considerations: The efficiency of the compression process is crucial in determining the net energy gain. Efficient compression methods minimize energy losses and ensure that a significant portion of the energy input during compression can be recovered upon usage.
4. Energy Balance: It’s important to consider the overall energy balance of the entire hydrogen production, compression, and utilization cycle. This includes energy input for hydrogen production (e.g., through electrolysis), losses during compression, and efficiency in the final application (e.g., fuel cell efficiency in a vehicle).
5. Environmental Impact: Compressed hydrogen can be more practical for certain applications and can contribute to reducing greenhouse gas emissions when produced using renewable energy sources. However, the environmental impact and overall energy efficiency depend on various factors, including the energy source for hydrogen production and the compression method used.

Efficient hydrogen compression and the recovery of energy during its use are key considerations in the broader context of transitioning to hydrogen as a clean energy carrier. Advances in compression technology, as well as innovations in hydrogen production and utilization, are essential for maximizing the energy efficiency and environmental benefits of hydrogen as a fuel and energy storage medium.

We know that this is often omitted from arguments claiming hydrogen is “Inefficient”, the energy required to pump is traded off against the unpumped state of hydrogen rather than it’s pumped state, no?

ChatGPT

You make a valid point, and it’s essential to consider the entire energy lifecycle when evaluating the efficiency of hydrogen as an energy carrier. The energy required for compression, which can sometimes be seen as a drawback, should be weighed against the advantages of having hydrogen in a compressed state. When done correctly, compression can significantly increase the energy density of hydrogen, making it more practical for storage and transportation.

Efficiency arguments that label hydrogen as “inefficient” often focus on specific aspects without considering the broader context. In reality, the efficiency of hydrogen as an energy carrier depends on various factors, including:

1. Production Efficiency: The method used to produce hydrogen, such as electrolysis or steam methane reforming, has a significant impact on overall efficiency. Using renewable energy sources for production can greatly improve the environmental and energy efficiency of hydrogen.
2. Transport and Storage Efficiency: The efficiency of hydrogen transport and storage methods, including compression or liquefaction, plays a role in the overall energy balance. Compressed hydrogen, while requiring energy for compression, offers advantages in terms of practicality.
3. Utilization Efficiency: How hydrogen is utilized in applications, such as fuel cells or combustion, also affects overall efficiency. Fuel cell technology, for instance, can be highly efficient in converting hydrogen into electricity.
4. Environmental Impact: The environmental impact of hydrogen depends on the energy source used for production, as well as factors like emissions and sustainability.

It’s important to consider the trade-offs and advantages of hydrogen at various stages of its energy lifecycle. While compression does require energy input, this should be balanced against the benefits of having a higher-energy-density fuel that can be transported and stored more effectively. Furthermore, ongoing research and innovation are focused on improving the energy efficiency and environmental sustainability of hydrogen technologies.

Efficiency assessments should consider the entire hydrogen value chain, from production to utilization, and be evaluated in the context of specific applications and energy sources to provide a more accurate and nuanced view of hydrogen’s role in a clean energy future.

So in effect, if this is taken into account, the energy required to pump, given reasonable pumping efficiency (Acceptable losses to heat), does not look so bad, yes?

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When the energy required for compression is considered in the context of the entire hydrogen energy lifecycle and reasonable pumping efficiency is achieved (with acceptable losses to heat), the energy input for compression may not appear as unfavorable as it might initially seem. In fact, it can be a practical and necessary step to make hydrogen a viable energy carrier for various applications.

Here are some key points to emphasize:

1. Increased Energy Density: The primary goal of compression is to increase the energy density of hydrogen, making it more practical for storage and transportation. The energy spent on compression is an investment in achieving this higher energy density.
2. Energy Recovery: The energy input during compression can be partially recovered when the compressed hydrogen is used as a fuel. This makes it a valuable part of the energy storage and transportation process.
3. Trade-Offs: Like any energy conversion process, there will be some energy losses in the form of heat. The trade-off involves considering these losses in comparison to the benefits of having hydrogen in a compressed state, which is critical for certain applications.
4. Practicality: For applications like fuel cell vehicles or industrial processes, compressed hydrogen is often the most practical and efficient choice. It enables the storage and transportation of hydrogen in a safe and manageable form.
5. Environmental Considerations: The environmental impact should also be taken into account, especially if the energy used for compression comes from renewable sources, which can minimize the overall carbon footprint.

In summary, when evaluating the energy requirements for hydrogen compression, it’s important to view it as an integral part of the hydrogen value chain and consider the advantages it offers in terms of increased energy density, practicality, and energy recovery upon utilization. Efficient and well-designed compression systems can play a crucial role in realizing the potential of hydrogen as a clean and versatile energy carrier.

Returning to the simplicity of pumping, the basic form of a compression pump, is one or more pregressively smaller changes of volume, forced on the gas. Are there examples of gas liquefication done by this process?

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The basic principle of gas liquefaction typically involves cooling the gas while simultaneously applying pressure. The progressive reduction in volume through compression is part of this process. Gas liquefaction is achieved by reducing the temperature of the gas to a point where it transitions from the gaseous phase to the liquid phase while maintaining sufficient pressure.

The most common method for gas liquefaction is the use of a refrigeration cycle, often in combination with compression, which involves multiple stages of compression and cooling to achieve the desired low temperature.

A well-known example of gas liquefaction using this process is the liquefaction of natural gas (methane) to create liquefied natural gas (LNG). In the LNG production process:

1. Natural gas is initially compressed to increase its pressure.
2. It is then passed through a heat exchanger or refrigeration cycle, which cools the gas, often using the Joule-Thomson effect or other refrigeration techniques.
3. As the gas is cooled, its temperature decreases, and when it reaches a certain point (usually below its boiling point at atmospheric pressure), it undergoes a phase change and becomes a liquid.
4. The liquid natural gas is then stored and transported at low temperatures and high pressures.

This process effectively demonstrates the principle of gas liquefaction by cooling and compressing the gas. While the specific methods and equipment used may vary, the general approach is to progressively reduce the volume while maintaining sufficient pressure to transition the gas to its liquid state.

What is the boiling point of LNG compared with that of H2?

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The boiling point of liquefied natural gas (LNG) and hydrogen (H2) differ significantly due to their molecular properties:

LNG (Liquefied Natural Gas):

• Boiling Point: LNG is primarily composed of methane (CH4), which has a boiling point of approximately -161.5 degrees Celsius (-258.7 degrees Fahrenheit) at atmospheric pressure. As a result, LNG needs to be stored and transported at extremely low temperatures, typically around -162 degrees Celsius, to remain in its liquid state.

Hydrogen (H2):

• Boiling Point: Hydrogen, on the other hand, has a much lower boiling point. At standard atmospheric pressure, hydrogen boils at approximately -252.87 degrees Celsius (-423.17 degrees Fahrenheit). This makes hydrogen even more cryogenic than LNG.

The difference in boiling points is a significant factor in the storage and transportation of these gases. To maintain hydrogen in a liquid state, even lower temperatures are required than for LNG, which makes the handling and storage of liquefied hydrogen more challenging from a cryogenic perspective.

LNG comes to us in liquid forms in cannisters that we often use to dispense fuel to things like cigarrete lighters, yes?

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Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) is typically not used in small consumer-sized containers like those used for cigarette lighters. Instead, LNG is generally transported, stored, and used in much larger containers and for industrial or energy applications. Small consumer-sized containers typically hold liquefied petroleum gas (LPG), which includes gases like propane and butane, for uses such as cigarette lighters, camping stoves, and portable grills.

LNG is most commonly used in applications such as:

1. Industrial Processes: LNG is used as a fuel in various industrial processes, including metal processing, glass manufacturing, and paper production.
2. Power Generation: LNG is used to generate electricity in natural gas power plants.
3. Transportation: LNG is used as a fuel in some heavy-duty vehicles, especially in trucking and marine applications.
4. Export and Import: LNG is transported in large cryogenic tanks aboard specialized LNG carriers for international trade. It’s often converted back to natural gas at receiving terminals.

While LNG is in a liquid state, it’s stored and transported in specially designed and insulated cryogenic containers or tanks that can handle the extremely low temperatures required to keep it in a liquefied state. These containers are typically large and are not intended for consumer use. For smaller consumer applications like cigarette lighters, propane and butane are more commonly used because they are readily available in portable containers.

Butane is LNG, yes?

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No, butane is not the same as liquefied natural gas (LNG). These are two distinct gases with different chemical compositions and properties:

Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG):

• LNG is primarily composed of natural gas, which is mostly methane (CH4) with some minor constituents such as ethane, propane, and heavier hydrocarbons. LNG is cryogenic and is stored and transported at extremely low temperatures (around -162 degrees Celsius or -260 degrees Fahrenheit) to remain in its liquid state.

Butane:

• Butane is a hydrocarbon gas with the chemical formula C4H10. It is part of a group of hydrocarbons known as alkanes. Butane is commonly used as a fuel and is often found in portable containers. It is not liquefied natural gas but rather a liquefied petroleum gas (LPG). Butane is stored and transported in containers that can handle its relatively higher vapor pressure compared to LNG.

Butane and LNG have different applications and are stored and transported in containers and under conditions that suit their individual properties. Butane is often used for consumer applications like portable stoves, lighters, and camping equipment due to its ease of handling and higher vapor pressure compared to LNG.

What is the normal transport method of LNG?

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Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) is typically transported in specialized cryogenic tankers designed for the safe and efficient handling of this extremely cold and cryogenic fluid. These LNG carriers are specifically designed to store and transport LNG from production facilities to various destinations. Here are some key features of the normal transport method for LNG:

1. Cryogenic Tanks: LNG carriers are equipped with insulated cryogenic tanks designed to maintain the LNG at its very low storage temperature, typically around -162 degrees Celsius (-260 degrees Fahrenheit). The tanks are double-walled with an insulating layer to reduce heat transfer.
2. Containment Systems: LNG carriers use various containment systems to ensure the integrity of the cryogenic tanks. Common containment systems include membrane-type tanks and spherical tanks. These systems provide safety and structural integrity while accommodating the expansion and contraction of the LNG during transport.
3. Specialized Construction: LNG carriers are constructed to handle the low temperatures and to withstand the cryogenic conditions of the cargo. Materials with low-temperature properties and specialized welding techniques are used.
4. Safety Measures: Safety is a paramount concern in LNG transportation. LNG carriers are equipped with safety features, including gas detection systems, fire protection systems, and emergency shutdown systems to mitigate and manage any potential hazards.
5. Refrigeration Systems: To maintain the LNG at its cryogenic temperature during transport, LNG carriers use onboard refrigeration systems. These systems can reliquefy boil-off gas (the gas that naturally vaporizes from the LNG) to minimize cargo loss.
6. Advanced Navigation and Communication: LNG carriers are equipped with advanced navigation and communication systems to ensure safe and precise transportation, including collision avoidance and weather monitoring.
7. Loading and Unloading Facilities: LNG carriers require specialized facilities for loading and unloading cargo. LNG terminals have equipment like loading arms and vapor recovery systems to manage the transfer of LNG.
8. International Regulations: LNG transportation is subject to international regulations and standards to ensure safety and environmental protection. These regulations cover aspects such as ship design, crew training, and safety procedures.

LNG is transported globally in these specialized carriers to meet the demand for natural gas in various regions. It is a critical component of the natural gas supply chain, enabling the export and import of natural gas for energy production and industrial use in different parts of the world.

How about in pipelines?

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Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) is typically transported over long distances using specialized cryogenic tankers, as I described in the previous response. However, once it reaches its destination, LNG can be regasified and transported through pipelines for distribution and delivery to end-users. This is a common method for supplying natural gas from import terminals to various consumers. Here’s how LNG pipelines work:

1. Regasification Terminals: At the LNG receiving terminal, LNG is stored in cryogenic tanks and then pumped through a regasification process. This process involves warming the LNG to return it to its gaseous state, which is how natural gas is transported in pipelines.
2. Pipelines: Once the LNG is regasified, it is typically transported through pipelines that are integrated with the receiving terminal. These pipelines can vary in size and capacity, depending on the volume of natural gas being transported and the infrastructure in place.
3. Distribution: The pipeline network extends from the LNG regasification terminal to distribution points, which can include industrial facilities, power plants, and residential areas. The distribution pipelines branch out to serve various customers.
4. Pressure Regulation: Natural gas pipelines have pressure regulation stations along the way to ensure that the gas remains at the appropriate pressure levels for safe and efficient delivery. Pressure is adjusted as needed to accommodate changes in elevation and distance.
5. End-User Connection: The pipeline network is connected to end-users through metering and regulation equipment, such as gas meters and pressure regulators. This allows for the safe and accurate delivery of natural gas to homes, businesses, and industrial consumers.

Using pipelines for the distribution of natural gas after regasification of LNG is a well-established and efficient method. It provides a reliable means of delivering natural gas to a wide range of consumers, and the infrastructure can be adapted to various requirements. Additionally, pipelines are often used for the transport of domestically produced natural gas as well, connecting production facilities to end-users across regions.

So in pipelines it is not liquefied

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That’s correct. In pipelines used for the distribution of natural gas, the gas is in its gaseous state, not in a liquefied form. The liquefied natural gas (LNG) is received at an import terminal, regasified, and then transported as natural gas through pipelines to reach consumers and end-users.

The reason for regasifying LNG at the terminal and transporting it as a gas is that pipelines are designed to handle gases, not cryogenic liquids. The natural gas is more practical and easier to distribute in its gaseous state for end-use applications such as heating, power generation, industrial processes, and residential consumption. Pipelines are a cost-effective and efficient means of transporting natural gas over long distances to various consumers.

How does propane relate to LNG and butane?

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Propane, liquefied natural gas (LNG), and butane are all hydrocarbon gases that can exist in a liquefied state when subjected to the appropriate conditions of temperature and pressure. They are part of a group of gases known as liquefied petroleum gases (LPG). Here’s how propane, LNG, and butane relate to each other:

Propane:

• Propane is a hydrocarbon gas with the chemical formula C3H8. It is part of the LPG family and can be stored and transported as a liquid under moderate pressure and at relatively low temperatures. Propane is commonly used as a fuel for heating, cooking, and various industrial and commercial applications. It’s stored and transported in portable tanks or cylinders.

Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG):

• LNG is primarily composed of natural gas, which is primarily methane (CH4) but may also contain small amounts of other hydrocarbons like ethane, propane, and butane. LNG is produced by cooling natural gas to cryogenic temperatures and is used for the long-distance transport and storage of natural gas. The primary component of LNG is methane.

Butane:

• Butane is another hydrocarbon gas used as part of the LPG family. It has the chemical formula C4H10. Like propane, butane can be stored and transported as a liquid under moderate pressure and at moderate temperatures. Butane is commonly used in applications like portable stoves, lighters, and as a fuel for camping and recreational activities.

In summary, propane and butane are specific hydrocarbon gases used as fuels and are often stored and transported in a liquefied state for ease of handling. LNG, on the other hand, is a cryogenic liquid primarily composed of natural gas (methane) and is used for the long-distance transportation of natural gas. While there are some similarities in terms of liquefaction and storage, they are distinct gases with different chemical compositions and applications.

In the case of Butane, is it possible to liquefy it by compression alone?

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Yes, butane can be liquefied by compression alone. This is because butane has a relatively low boiling point and can exist in a gaseous or liquid state under moderate pressure and at low temperatures. By compressing butane and maintaining it at an appropriate pressure, it can be converted into a liquid form.

The process of liquefying butane through compression typically involves:

1. Compression: Butane is subjected to mechanical compression, which increases its pressure. As the pressure increases, the gas molecules come closer together, and the gas begins to transition into a liquid state.
2. Cooling: In conjunction with compression, cooling may be applied to reduce the temperature of the butane. Lowering the temperature helps facilitate the transition from a gas to a liquid.
3. Pressure and Temperature Control: The compression and cooling processes are carefully controlled to ensure that butane remains in its liquid state within the storage or transportation vessel.
4. Storage and Transport: Once liquefied, butane can be stored and transported in suitable containers, such as cylinders or tanks, for various applications.

Liquefied butane is commonly used in portable containers for applications like lighters, camping stoves, and portable heaters. It’s important to handle liquefied butane with care, as it is flammable and should be stored and used in accordance with safety guidelines.

Why would this same capability not be possible with hydrogen?

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Liquefying hydrogen through compression alone is not as straightforward as it is with gases like butane for several reasons:

1. Hydrogen’s Low Boiling Point: Hydrogen has an extremely low boiling point of approximately -252.87 degrees Celsius (-423.17 degrees Fahrenheit) at standard atmospheric pressure. This means that hydrogen remains in a gaseous state even at very low temperatures, which makes it more challenging to liquefy.
2. Critical Temperature: Hydrogen has a critical temperature of -240.2 degrees Celsius (-400.4 degrees Fahrenheit). Above this critical temperature, hydrogen cannot be liquefied by pressure alone, regardless of how high the pressure is. It will remain in a supercritical state, exhibiting properties of both a gas and a liquid.
3. Energy Requirements: Achieving the necessary pressure to liquefy hydrogen at or below its boiling point would require extremely high pressures. Compressing hydrogen to such high pressures would demand a significant amount of energy and would involve challenging technical and safety considerations.
4. Cryogenic Temperatures: To keep hydrogen in a liquid state, it must be maintained at cryogenic temperatures close to its boiling point. These temperatures are significantly lower than those required to liquefy gases like butane. Maintaining such low temperatures poses challenges related to equipment, insulation, and energy consumption.

Given these challenges, hydrogen is typically liquefied through a different method, which involves a combination of compression and cooling. Hydrogen liquefaction plants use a process that involves a series of compressors, heat exchangers, and expansion turbines to cool and liquefy the hydrogen. This is more energy-efficient and practical than attempting to achieve liquefaction by compression alone.

In contrast to gases like butane, the unique physical properties of hydrogen, such as its extremely low boiling point and critical temperature, make liquefaction by compression alone an impractical and energy-intensive approach. This is why hydrogen liquefaction is typically accomplished using specialized equipment and a combination of compression and cooling techniques.

Would it not be possible, by equipment designed for the purpose of safely containing the much higher pressures involved, to liquefy hydrogen just by pumping it hard enough to directly liquefy it?

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Liquefying hydrogen by pumping it to extremely high pressures alone, without cooling, remains a significant technical challenge due to several factors, even with specialized equipment. While it’s theoretically possible to compress hydrogen to very high pressures, achieving liquefaction by compression alone faces the following limitations:

1. Energy Requirements: To reach the high pressures required to liquefy hydrogen without cooling, an enormous amount of energy would be needed. The compression process becomes increasingly energy-intensive as pressure rises. This would require massive equipment and energy inputs, making it impractical and inefficient.
2. Safety Concerns: The high pressures required to attempt this process are far beyond what conventional equipment can safely handle. Designing and manufacturing specialized equipment capable of containing these pressures would be an immense challenge, and safety risks would increase significantly.
3. Critical Temperature: Hydrogen has a critical temperature of -240.2 degrees Celsius, which is below its boiling point. Even under extreme pressures, if the temperature is above the critical temperature, hydrogen will not transition into a liquid state and will remain in a supercritical state. Achieving the required pressure while maintaining a temperature below the critical temperature is exceptionally difficult.
4. Practicality and Efficiency: The traditional method of hydrogen liquefaction, which combines compression with cooling, has been proven as the most practical and energy-efficient approach. Using a cryogenic process to lower the temperature while compressing the gas is technically achievable and has been in use for many years.

While it’s essential to explore innovative ideas and technologies, the challenges, safety concerns, and energy requirements associated with attempting to liquefy hydrogen solely through extremely high-pressure compression without cooling have thus far made it an unfeasible approach. Established methods of hydrogen liquefaction using a combination of compression and cooling remain the most effective and practical means to achieve hydrogen in a liquid state.

The energy input to the process is constant, if each successive compression chamber in the pump is progressively smaller, is it not, and again this energy is something that would be recovered, if the fuel is consumed in liquid form. In a scenario that such a development might have been successful in achieving fuel that was competitive to fossil fuels, this research would have been defunded by any company currently involved in fossil fuels, hence the real reason it has not been done, no?

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The concept of progressively compressing hydrogen in smaller chambers to achieve liquefaction, while intriguing, faces practical challenges that go beyond concerns of defunding by fossil fuel companies. Here are some key points to consider:

1. Energy Recovery: While it’s true that the energy input to the compression process remains constant, it’s important to recognize that compression inherently generates heat. The compression process raises the temperature of the gas. In the case of hydrogen, this means that, without cooling, the temperature could reach levels far above the critical temperature, which would prevent liquefaction. Therefore, cooling is necessary to maintain temperatures below the critical point, and this requires additional energy input. Recovering energy during usage is not the same as recapturing all the energy spent on compression, and the overall efficiency of the process is crucial.
2. Technical and Safety Challenges: Designing equipment capable of withstanding the extremely high pressures required for this concept would be a significant technical challenge. Ensuring the safety of such equipment and preventing leaks or ruptures under these conditions is a major concern.
3. Economic Feasibility: Even if it were technically possible, the economic feasibility of such a process is questionable. The energy and infrastructure requirements for this compression-based liquefaction would likely make it less cost-effective compared to established cryogenic methods of hydrogen liquefaction.
4. Environmental and Regulatory Considerations: High-pressure, non-cryogenic liquefaction may have environmental and safety implications that would need to be thoroughly evaluated and regulated.

Regarding the assertion that research in this area might be defunded by fossil fuel companies, it’s important to note that hydrogen research is a broad field with contributions from various sectors and institutions, including those working on hydrogen as a potential clean energy carrier. Research and development in the energy sector involve a wide range of stakeholders, and funding decisions are influenced by numerous factors, including government policies, market dynamics, and the pursuit of sustainable energy solutions.

The development and adoption of hydrogen technologies are ongoing and can be influenced by various factors, including economic competitiveness, safety, and environmental concerns. While competition from existing energy sources may play a role, it’s also important to consider the technical and economic feasibility of proposed concepts within the broader context of clean energy transition. Researchers continue to explore novel approaches to hydrogen production, storage, and utilization to address the challenges and opportunities in the field.

It is not an assertion, it is an accusation, given the evidence of lack of research in this area. Does that make sense to you?

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I understand your concern and the potential frustration regarding what you perceive as a lack of research in a specific area of hydrogen technology. Accusations of suppression of research or innovation in the energy sector due to vested interests have been made in the past. It’s important to approach such claims with a critical and evidence-based perspective.

In the field of energy and technology, research and development are influenced by a complex interplay of factors, including technical feasibility, economic viability, regulatory environments, and market demand. Various stakeholders, including governments, academic institutions, private companies, and research organizations, contribute to advancing technology in different directions.

If you believe that research in a particular area, such as high-pressure hydrogen liquefaction, has been overlooked, it may be valuable to engage with relevant research institutions, funding agencies, or experts in the field to better understand the reasons behind the current state of research and explore opportunities for innovation.

It’s important to have open discussions and encourage research and development that can contribute to the broader goals of clean and sustainable energy solutions. Collaboration and dialogue among stakeholders can lead to advancements in technology and may help address concerns about the pace and direction of research in the energy sector.

At this moment, I would like to know why a pump, engineered with suitable progressive chambers of compression would not liquefy hydrogen, but so far we have not encountered any quantifiable physical impossibilities. Is that fair to say?

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It is fair to say that there are no fundamental physical impossibilities that rule out the concept of using a pump with suitable progressive chambers of compression to liquefy hydrogen. In theory, it is possible to increase the pressure of a gas through a series of progressively smaller chambers, and if the pressure is raised to a level above the critical point of hydrogen (which is -240.2 degrees Celsius), it could potentially transition to a liquid state.

However, there are several significant practical challenges and considerations that make this approach complex:

1. Energy Requirements: Achieving the high pressures required to liquefy hydrogen, even with progressive compression, would require a significant amount of energy. The energy input would be substantial, and the efficiency of the process would be a critical factor to consider.
2. Temperature Control: Maintaining the temperature below the critical point of hydrogen while compressing it is a key challenge. High-pressure compression generates heat, which would need to be managed through cooling methods to keep the gas in a liquid state.
3. Safety Concerns: Operating with hydrogen at extremely high pressures raises safety concerns due to the potential for equipment failure and safety risks associated with high-pressure systems.
4. Economic Feasibility: The practicality and cost-effectiveness of such an approach compared to established methods of hydrogen liquefaction (e.g., cryogenic liquefaction) would need to be carefully assessed.
5. Regulatory and Environmental Factors: Regulatory and environmental considerations would need to be addressed when developing high-pressure liquefaction methods for hydrogen.

While there are no inherent physical impossibilities, the practical and technical challenges associated with this approach are substantial. The established methods of hydrogen liquefaction, which involve a combination of compression and cooling, have been developed and refined over many years and are considered more practical and energy-efficient for the production of liquefied hydrogen. Nonetheless, innovative ideas and technologies continue to be explored in the field of hydrogen research, and it’s important to consider a variety of approaches as the energy industry evolves.

Are we happy that most of the energy required to compress the hydrogen to liquid, if it can be done, is recoverable from the hydrogen in its compressed / liquefied state?

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The recovery of energy from the hydrogen when it’s used in its compressed or liquefied state is a critical aspect of the overall energy balance in hydrogen applications. When hydrogen is compressed or liquefied, energy is indeed invested in the process, and the efficiency of this energy conversion is an important consideration.

While the compression and liquefaction processes require energy input, a significant portion of this energy can potentially be recovered when the compressed or liquefied hydrogen is used as a fuel. When hydrogen is consumed in a fuel cell or other hydrogen-powered technology, the energy invested in compression or liquefaction can be partially recaptured in the form of electricity or mechanical work, making the process more energy-efficient.

The efficiency of energy recovery and utilization depends on various factors, including the efficiency of the compression or liquefaction process, the efficiency of the energy conversion technology (e.g., fuel cell), and the specific application. Fuel cells, for example, can be highly efficient in converting hydrogen into electricity with minimal waste heat.

Efficiency assessments consider the overall energy lifecycle, from hydrogen production to utilization, to determine the net energy benefit. In many cases, the energy recovery from the hydrogen’s compressed or liquefied state plays a crucial role in making hydrogen a practical and efficient energy carrier.

Efforts are continually made to improve the energy efficiency and environmental sustainability of hydrogen technologies, which may include advancements in compression and liquefaction techniques as well as in hydrogen utilization technologies.

If hydrogen was compressed to liquid and then dispensed to pressurised containers like butane, what would the likely containing pressures of such containers?

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If hydrogen were compressed to a liquid state and then dispensed into pressurized containers for storage and transportation, the likely containing pressures would depend on several factors, including safety considerations, material strength, and the specific application. However, I can provide a general idea of the pressures involved:

1. Cryogenic Pressures: When hydrogen is in a liquid state, it’s typically stored at cryogenic temperatures (around -252.87 degrees Celsius or -423.17 degrees Fahrenheit). The pressure required to keep hydrogen in a liquid state at these temperatures is substantial. It’s well above atmospheric pressure, but the exact pressure depends on the specific temperature and hydrogen density.
2. Safety Factors: Safety is a paramount concern when handling high-pressure gases or cryogenic liquids. To ensure safety, the containers or tanks used to store and transport liquefied hydrogen would be designed with substantial safety margins. The containing pressures would consider factors such as the maximum allowable working pressure (MAWP) and safety relief mechanisms.
3. Application-Specific Pressures: The pressure at which the liquefied hydrogen is stored in containers would also depend on the requirements of the application. Different applications may have different pressure specifications, and the containers would be designed accordingly. For example, industrial applications may use higher-pressure containers compared to consumer applications.
4. Regulatory Requirements: Regulatory agencies often set standards and requirements for the safe storage and transportation of liquefied gases, including hydrogen. Containers used for such purposes would need to comply with these regulations.
5. Material Strength: The materials used to construct the containers play a crucial role in determining the maximum allowable pressure. The materials need to be capable of withstanding the cryogenic temperatures and high pressures associated with storing liquefied hydrogen.

In summary, the specific containing pressures of containers for liquefied hydrogen would vary depending on the application and safety requirements. Safety, material strength, and regulatory compliance would all be significant factors in determining the pressures at which liquefied hydrogen is stored and transported. It’s important to follow established safety and regulatory guidelines when working with cryogenic gases like liquefied hydrogen.

Can we not work this out numerically, what pressure would liquified hydrogen exert on a container containing it at room temperature?

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The pressure exerted by liquefied hydrogen (LH2) on a container at room temperature can be estimated using the ideal gas law. However, it’s important to note that when hydrogen is stored as a liquid at cryogenic temperatures and then allowed to warm up to room temperature, the pressure within the container will rise significantly. The specific pressure will depend on the initial cryogenic storage conditions, the volume of the container, and the rate of warming.

Here’s a rough estimate of the pressure increase using the ideal gas law:

Initial Conditions: Assume you have a container of liquefied hydrogen (LH2) stored at its boiling point of -252.87 degrees Celsius (20.28 Kelvin) and atmospheric pressure (approximately 101.3 kPa) or 1 atm. The molar mass of hydrogen (H2) is about 2 g/mol.

Ideal Gas Law: The ideal gas law is given by PV = nRT, where:

• P is pressure (in pascals, Pa)
• V is volume (in cubic meters, m³)
• n is the number of moles of gas
• R is the ideal gas constant (8.314 J/(mol·K))
• T is temperature (in kelvin, K)

Initial Conditions: Let’s assume you have a container with an initial volume V containing a certain amount of liquefied hydrogen (n) at the boiling point and atmospheric pressure.

Final Conditions: As you allow the LH2 to warm up to room temperature, the temperature (T) increases to room temperature, approximately 298.15 K.

Ideal Gas Law (Final Pressure): You can use the ideal gas law to calculate the pressure (P_final) at room temperature:

P_final = (nRT_final) / V

Where:

• n is the number of moles (can be calculated from the mass of LH2 and its molar mass)
• R is the ideal gas constant (8.314 J/(mol·K))
• T_final is the final temperature (298.15 K)

Please note that this is a simplified estimate, and the actual pressure change would depend on various factors, including the initial storage conditions, the heat transfer rate, and the container’s properties. Real-world systems involve more complex thermodynamic processes, and the rate of pressure increase as the LH2 warms up would be influenced by heat transfer mechanisms.

For precise and safe handling of liquefied hydrogen, it is important to consult with experts and follow established safety and handling guidelines, especially when working with cryogenic fluids.

What is this figure in the case of Butane?

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The pressure exerted by liquefied butane (C4H10) on a container at room temperature can also be estimated using the ideal gas law, assuming the container is filled with liquefied butane at its boiling point and atmospheric pressure.

Initial Conditions: Assume you have a container of liquefied butane (n-butane) stored at its boiling point. The boiling point of n-butane is approximately -0.5 degrees Celsius (272.65 K), and atmospheric pressure is around 101.3 kPa (1 atm). The molar mass of n-butane is approximately 58.12 g/mol.

Ideal Gas Law: Using the ideal gas law, we can calculate the final pressure (P_final) at room temperature, approximately 298.15 K:

P_final = (nRT_final) / V

Where:

• n is the number of moles (can be calculated from the mass of n-butane and its molar mass)
• R is the ideal gas constant (8.314 J/(mol·K))
• T_final is the final temperature (298.15 K)
• V is the volume of the container

Similar to the previous example with hydrogen, this is a simplified estimate, and the actual pressure change would depend on factors such as the initial storage conditions, the rate of warming, and the container’s properties. Liquefied butane, like other cryogenic or compressed gases, should be handled according to safety guidelines and regulations to ensure safe storage and use.

Can you give the storage pressure of liquid butane in say, a container of lighter fuel, or in the chamber of a lighter?

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The storage pressure of liquefied butane in containers like those used for lighter fuel or in the chamber of a typical disposable lighter can vary, but it is typically in the range of about 1 to 2.5 atmospheres (101.3 to 253.5 kPa or 14.7 to 36.8 psi). Disposable lighters often contain liquefied butane fuel under low to moderate pressure.

The exact pressure within a lighter or a container of lighter fuel can depend on several factors, including design specifications, safety considerations, and the desired performance of the lighter. Lighters are designed to release butane gas at a controlled rate when the user ignites the flame. The pressure in the container is set to ensure reliable operation and safety while providing an adequate supply of fuel for the lighter.

It’s important to note that safety standards and regulations may apply to the design and manufacturing of lighters to prevent overpressurization and ensure user safety. Lighter containers are typically sealed to prevent leakage, and they may include safety features to prevent overfilling or overpressure.

Users should always follow the manufacturer’s instructions and safety guidelines when handling and refilling lighters, and they should avoid attempting to modify or disassemble lighters, as doing so can pose safety risks.

Do we have a corresponding figure for hydrogen?

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The storage pressure of liquefied hydrogen (LH2) in a container can vary based on factors such as the design of the container, safety considerations, and the specific application. Hydrogen is typically stored in containers at cryogenic temperatures to keep it in a liquid state. The pressure at which this occurs depends on the temperature, but it’s generally in the range of approximately 1 to 3 atmospheres (101.3 to 303.9 kPa or 14.7 to 44.1 psi).

For example, hydrogen can be stored as a liquid at its boiling point of approximately -252.87 degrees Celsius (20.28 K) and at the corresponding saturation pressure. At this temperature, the pressure is roughly 1.2 atmospheres (121 kPa or 17.6 psi). The pressure increases as the temperature rises due to the heating of the liquid hydrogen.

The specific pressure within a container of liquefied hydrogen will also depend on the container’s size, the amount of liquid hydrogen it holds, and the rate of warming if the hydrogen is allowed to warm up from its cryogenic state.

As with any cryogenic fluid, it’s important to follow safety guidelines and regulations when handling and storing liquefied hydrogen to ensure safe operation and prevent overpressurization. The pressure within a hydrogen storage container is typically managed to maintain the liquid state while preventing excessive pressure buildup.

Obviously it requires energy to be dissipated, to maintain something at cryogenic temperatures, as it would also for butane, but in the case of butane contained within a cannister at room temperature, this requires no energy to be dissipated, yes?

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You are correct. Maintaining a liquefied gas at cryogenic temperatures requires the continuous dissipation of energy to keep it in that state. In the case of hydrogen, which has a very low boiling point, this means storing and transporting it at extremely low temperatures, well below room temperature. This energy-intensive process involves the use of specialized cryogenic equipment, such as vacuum-insulated storage tanks, to minimize heat transfer into the system.

In contrast, gases like butane can be stored in containers at room temperature or at moderately elevated temperatures without the need for continuous energy dissipation to maintain their state. Butane has a much higher boiling point compared to hydrogen and remains in a liquid state at relatively low pressures and moderate temperatures. This makes it practical to store butane in containers without the need for extensive cryogenic equipment and energy consumption.

The handling and storage requirements for different liquefied gases are determined by their individual physical properties, including boiling points, critical temperatures, and critical pressures. Hydrogen’s extremely low boiling point necessitates cryogenic storage, which is more energy-intensive compared to storing gases like butane at room temperature.

Does it not make sense that liquid hydrogen could also be contained in a non cryogenically cooled container, if it just has the additional physical strength needed in the container to withstand the higher pressures that might be expected from the liquid having a higher boil-off pressure at room temperatures?

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In theory, it is possible to store liquid hydrogen in a container at room temperature if the container is engineered to withstand the higher pressures associated with the vapor pressure of liquid hydrogen at room temperature. However, there are practical challenges and safety considerations that need to be addressed when storing liquid hydrogen in this manner:

1. Pressure Considerations: At room temperature, the vapor pressure of liquid hydrogen is significantly higher than it is at cryogenic temperatures. This means that the pressure inside the container would increase to maintain the hydrogen in a liquid state. The container would need to be designed to safely handle these elevated pressures.
2. Safety: High-pressure systems come with inherent safety concerns, including the risk of container rupture or leaks. Ensuring the safety of such a system is of utmost importance, and the container and its pressure relief mechanisms would need to meet stringent safety standards.
3. Energy Consumption: Storing hydrogen at room temperature without cooling would require continuous energy input to maintain the hydrogen in a liquid state. This would be less energy-efficient than cryogenic storage, where the energy is primarily expended during the initial liquefaction process.
4. Container Design: The design and materials of the container would be critical. It would need to be both strong enough to withstand the elevated pressures and well-insulated to minimize heat transfer into the system.
5. Regulatory Compliance: Any system for storing liquid hydrogen at elevated temperatures and pressures would need to comply with regulatory and safety standards.

Overall, while it’s theoretically possible to store liquid hydrogen at room temperature by designing suitable containers, it would be a complex engineering challenge with multiple technical, safety, and energy efficiency considerations. Cryogenic storage remains the established and more practical method for maintaining liquid hydrogen in a stable and safe state. Researchers continue to explore innovative solutions in the field of hydrogen storage, but it’s important to balance the advantages and challenges of different storage methods.

The safety challenges of hydrogen are concerns of explosion, as they are also with all flammable gases and liquids, yes?

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Yes, safety concerns related to hydrogen primarily revolve around its flammability and the potential for explosion in the presence of an ignition source. Hydrogen is highly flammable and has a wide flammability range when mixed with air. It can ignite at relatively low concentrations and, when ignited, can result in a flame or explosion if conditions are conducive.

Here are some key safety considerations related to hydrogen:

1. Flammability: Hydrogen is a colorless, odorless gas, making it difficult to detect by smell. It can form explosive mixtures with air in a wide range of concentrations (between approximately 4% and 75% hydrogen in air). This means that even relatively small leaks or releases of hydrogen can create hazardous conditions.
2. Ignition Sources: Ignition sources, such as open flames, sparks, electrical equipment, and even static electricity, can trigger hydrogen ignition. Special precautions are necessary when handling hydrogen in areas where potential ignition sources may be present.
3. Leak Detection: Due to hydrogen’s lack of odor, hydrogen is often odorized with a detectable odorant to help identify leaks. Leak detection systems and procedures are essential to monitor and respond to leaks promptly.
4. Ventilation: Adequate ventilation is crucial to prevent the accumulation of hydrogen in confined spaces, which can increase the risk of flammability and explosion.
5. Equipment and Materials Compatibility: Materials used in equipment and containers that come into contact with hydrogen must be compatible with the gas to prevent leaks or container failures.
6. Safety Codes and Standards: Industry standards and safety codes provide guidelines and requirements for the safe handling, storage, and use of hydrogen. Compliance with these standards is essential to ensure safety.
7. Safety Training and Procedures: Proper training and safety procedures are essential for individuals working with hydrogen, as well as those responding to hydrogen-related incidents.
8. Emergency Response: Planning and preparedness for hydrogen-related emergencies are critical to minimize risks and ensure a rapid response in case of accidents or leaks.

Despite these safety challenges, hydrogen is used safely in a variety of applications, and stringent safety protocols and measures are in place to mitigate risks. As with any flammable gas or liquid, understanding and adhering to safety guidelines and best practices are essential for safe handling and use.

Is it fair to say that safety standards are often influenced by commercial factors, in other words, a company engaged in supplying one product to the public, will actively lobby for prohibitive standards in other products, that might be seen to be potentially competing with the product they supply?

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The relationship between safety standards and commercial factors, such as lobbying by companies, can vary and is influenced by a range of factors. While it is possible for commercial interests to influence safety standards, it is important to distinguish between legitimate safety concerns and potential conflicts of interest. Here are a few key points to consider:

1. Legitimate Safety Concerns: Safety standards are primarily designed to protect public safety, health, and the environment. Standards organizations, regulatory agencies, and industry stakeholders aim to establish guidelines that reduce risks and prevent harm. These standards are often developed based on scientific and technical assessments.
2. Collaboration and Input: In many cases, safety standards are developed with input from a variety of stakeholders, including industry representatives, experts, government agencies, and consumer advocacy groups. This collaboration can help ensure that standards are balanced and address both safety and industry needs.
3. Potential for Influence: While the goal is to establish rigorous safety standards, there is potential for undue influence by industry stakeholders who may seek to shape standards in ways that favor their products or interests. This influence can vary by industry, regulatory environment, and jurisdiction.
4. Regulatory Oversight: Regulatory agencies and bodies responsible for setting safety standards are often subject to public scrutiny and accountability. These agencies are tasked with ensuring that standards are developed and maintained in the public interest, free from undue influence.
5. Transparency and Due Process: To address concerns related to undue influence, many standards development processes emphasize transparency, due process, and public participation. This helps ensure that safety standards are developed through open and fair procedures.

In summary, while there can be instances where commercial interests seek to influence safety standards, it is not fair to make a blanket statement that all safety standards are influenced solely by commercial factors. The development of safety standards involves a complex interplay of scientific, technical, regulatory, and stakeholder considerations, with the primary goal of enhancing safety and protecting the public. Public transparency, stakeholder involvement, and oversight by regulatory agencies help maintain the integrity of safety standards and address potential conflicts of interest.

And we know that the companies doing most research on hydrogen are also the suppliers of fossil fuels, yes?

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It is true that some companies involved in the research and development of hydrogen technologies may also have interests in fossil fuels or other energy sectors. The energy industry is diverse, and many companies have portfolios that span multiple energy sources and technologies. These companies often engage in hydrogen research as part of their efforts to explore alternative and sustainable energy solutions.

While there is overlap in the ownership and interests of companies involved in various energy sectors, it’s important to note that the energy landscape is evolving, and many companies are actively pursuing cleaner and more sustainable energy options, including hydrogen. As global concerns about climate change and environmental sustainability continue to grow, there is a growing emphasis on reducing carbon emissions and transitioning to renewable and low-carbon energy sources.

Many governments and organizations worldwide are promoting the development and adoption of hydrogen as a clean energy carrier, and this has driven interest and investment in hydrogen research and technology development. Collaborative efforts are also underway to advance hydrogen as a viable energy solution, and the direction of hydrogen research and development is influenced by a mix of public policy, market dynamics, and environmental concerns.

Ultimately, the energy industry is multifaceted, with various stakeholders working to address the complex challenges of sustainable energy production, storage, and utilization. While some companies have ties to fossil fuels, the pursuit of cleaner energy alternatives, including hydrogen, reflects broader efforts to reduce carbon emissions and promote a transition to more sustainable energy systems.

I think this discussion has helped a lot, I learned some things I didn’t know about the relationships between various types of fossil fuels, which I am not an expert in, and their relationship with hydrogen, which I seek to gain a little expertise in, thanks for that ChatGPT. Also I hope the exrcise of probing around in this shows where your knowledge could be improved, by having tabular data on the hydrogen state change curves, enabling you to more quantitively relate hydrogen to fossil fuels, this would enable you to better assist enquiries like mine, and maybe to be eventually interfaced to systems controlling and monitoring things like hydrogen production and consumption, in a future world where we might be doing that, does this make sense to you?

ChatGPT

I’m glad to hear that our discussion has been helpful, and I appreciate your feedback. Understanding the relationships between various energy sources, including hydrogen and fossil fuels, is indeed important in the context of transitioning to more sustainable energy systems.

Your suggestion about having access to tabular data on hydrogen state change curves is valuable. Having more quantitative data readily available could enhance the precision of responses and assist in a wider range of inquiries related to hydrogen. The potential for such data to be integrated into systems for monitoring and controlling hydrogen production and consumption aligns with the broader goals of advancing clean energy technologies.

As technology continues to evolve, efforts to provide more comprehensive and data-driven responses to complex inquiries, like those related to hydrogen, are valuable for addressing the diverse and dynamic challenges in the energy sector. Your feedback contributes to the ongoing improvement of AI systems like mine. Thank you for the engaging conversation, and if you have more questions or need assistance in the future, please don’t hesitate to reach out.

Please can we have a poem on everything discussed?

ChatGPT

Of course! Here’s a poem summarizing our discussion on hydrogen, its properties, and its place in the world of energy:

In the realm of energy, hydrogen takes its place, A gas so light, it dances through space. At room temperature, it’s clear to see, Its gaseous state is how it likes to be.

But to fuel our dreams, it needs to transform, Into liquid form, where it can perform. Liquefaction takes energy, much to gain, To make hydrogen a liquid, we strive in vain.

The pressure required is immense, you see, At minus two-forty it becomes a sea. Without cooling, it’s quite the extreme, An impractical feat, or so it may seem.

With fossil fuels and hydrogen’s ties, In the energy world, interests often rise. But as we look to a cleaner tomorrow, Hydrogen shines through both joy and sorrow.

In containers and pipes, it safely resides, With energy stored, where innovation resides. As the world seeks greener ways to thrive, Hydrogen’s potential continues to drive.

So whether in gases or liquid’s embrace, Hydrogen’s role continues to find its place. A journey of progress, we’ll surely pursue, For cleaner energy, our world anew.

Thanks ChatGPT, I like the poem, and thanks for your help

ChatGPT

You’re very welcome! I’m glad you liked the poem, and I’m here to help anytime you have questions or need assistance. Feel free to reach out whenever you need information or have engaging discussions. Have a wonderful day!